Why high-performing teams need psychological safety, trust and better leadership

Juliet: Hello and thanks for listening to Achieving More Together. The podcast series where we explore what it really takes to build and sustain high performing teams in today's corporate world. I'm Juliet Mann, and each month we dive into the things that shape team success. Hearing from leaders, experts and high performers across a variety of industries. In this episode, I sat down with Justine Lutterodt CEO and founder of the centre for Synchronous Leadership, to explore a question facing every modern organisation.

Juliet: Can responsible business still be high performing? Justine has two decades of experience supporting senior leaders in her practice as a C-suite coach. Most leaders know they're expected to deliver results, but they're also being judged on how they got there by their staff, their customers and the wider world. So what happens when performance and principles are in tension, and how should leaders navigate that?

Juliet: Keep listening to find out.

Juliet: Justine, thank you so much for joining me. Now I'm going to start by asking you a question. I'm asking all of our guests, although everyone answers it in a slightly different way. When you hear the phrase high performance, who or what comes to mind?

Justine: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. What comes to mind for me is flow. The state of flow. The state that you might find an improv jazz band is in, and it's the state where all of your experience, all of your expertise comes to bear. Your effort also comes to bear, but there's something effortless about it because you're well prepared.

Juliet: Now, for people who haven't heard your name before. Tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do.

Justine: So I am known by some of my clients as the change makers, change maker, which means that I am passionate about systemic change through business. About merging the world of, performance, high performance with what's actually good, for people and society. And have been working. I often say hunting and gathering some of the most amazing leaders, who are changemakers for a long time.

Justine: And I was given that title by one of my clients. On a practical level, we are a think tank, a membership, and a consultancy. My organisation is called the centre for Synchronous Leadership. And, we focus on, change in the corporate sector, supporting leaders, running courses, working with teams, that sort of thing.

Juliet: You started out in consulting before you got this fantastic moniker as a change makers, a change maker. But looking back now, what do you think that world taught you about how organisations really work behind the scenes?

Justine: It taught me so much. I studied maths and philosophy. So my father's a mathematician. My childhood was very intense in terms of training to be a great female mathematician, which was my dad's dream. I went to I studied maths, but I also fell in love with ethics and philosophy of language. And I found my way into business.

Justine: My mother had been in the world of business. But I showed up, alongside many people who had been to Wharton or Harvard and who had actually come from a business background. And I didn't really know what I was doing. So I came ready to learn, earn and leave. Because I had great ideals about the world, and I thought business was a good learning ground.

Justine: And I came in very ambitious, very ambitious and very idealistic. And increasingly, as I rose up the ranks. Because I had initial success. I found those two sides of me in conflict. Yeah. And I saw lots of examples of things where good people, seem to have a shadow side. And I it left me with a lot of questions.

Juliet: So you mean to reach your ambitions, you had to compromise your ideals?

Justine: I wasn't sure. So I think my solution was work harder. I wasn't politically savvy.

Juliet: Was was there a particular moment, a conversation or experience that really made you start questioning the way success is measured in business?

Justine: I would say two. There are two ways of me answering that question. So one is from a career success and sort of culture standpoint. I think one of the turning points was when I was, asked to lead recruitment for my university. And so at the time, there was a lot of spiel. I had gone many years to recruit people from my university, around how we had a flat hierarchy, how we had great work-life balance.

Justine: I had joined excited about these things. And I found myself now leading the efforts and saying these things and looking these young people in the eye. And I found myself being like, no, I'm sorry. That's not true. We have a horrible work-life balance, right? Our our hierarchy is not at all flat, but there are a lot of great things and great reasons to join, so let's just be clear on what they are.

Justine: So I found myself sort of having to update a narrative and have a more accurate one. So that was a turning point for me. And I think that was the beginning of me seeing how a lot of things that I found confusing and frustrating were actually, I was doing them too. They had they were sort of running through me.

Justine: And I think the second turning point was when I worked on a project, that involved looking at the top non-profits. Because I've been pushing to sort of get into the non-profit sector to understand, you know, what it meant to do good. And the organisation had a great practice in that area. And I got to collaborate with some of the top academics, and look across, the top non-profits.

Justine: And we had 27 metrics and look at success. And one of the great learnings for me at the time was that the really progressive non-profits that were the highest ranked were behaving more like businesses. And as I began to see that, it started changing my perception of whether business was a force or could be a force for good.

Justine: And I think that was the beginning of me really, being interested in understanding how business could make tweaks that actually led its ripple effects to be much more positive, for the people in it and those who were impacted.

Juliet: It's so interesting because you talk about starting as a, as a numbers gal, being all about the maths, and it's either right or it's wrong. But the world of business taught, so you had to adapt. And maybe one plus one doesn't always equal two.

Justine: I've always been a complexity thinker. So I've always had that sort of instinct to understand the more complex formula. If you think about it, my own heritage being black and white. I'm wearing my colours, and I've always seen that the binary never works. But I think when it came to, right and wrong, I probably was a bit judgmental because I came in with ideals, and idealistic narratives that really inspired me.

Justine: And I think I left with a much greater awareness, and empathy for, the human condition, including my role in it.

Juliet: So do you think that your definition of success has changed or adapted over the years?

Justine: Definitely. I think my programming from a young age was just sort of achievement and points that was relevant when I was in consulting. It became, much more relevant when I started the centre for Synchronous Leadership, because you could have all the endpoints in the world, and in fact, you could have all the credentials because you can shift from endpoints to credentials.

Justine: You could have all the credentials in the world, but if people didn't understand how you would add value to them, and if they didn't feel like they trusted you to add value for them, you wouldn't get any work. And that was the case in consulting, but I probably realised it on a much more shrewd level when my livelihood depended on it.

Juliet: You set up your your business. Out of all of these experiences, you're talking about that changing mindsets, that epiphany, those moments where you realised there's there's more to this. There's more to this. What was the spark that made you think this needs to exist? And I'm the one who needs to build it?

Justine: Well, I can cite a number of things, but two come to mind. One is, one of my, idols back then who I still have a huge amount of respect for was David Cooper Ryder, who's the founder of the Appreciative Inquiry movement. And who I got involved with speaking at their conferences at some point.

Justine: And he had this phrase, that I came across in this piece of research on business as an agent of world benefit. And that really, affected me. That inspired me. I thought, I want to be part of that. I want to use the knowledge of strategy and business that I've developed and high performance, to sort of serve that.

Justine: So that was one. And then I think the reason why I also felt I needed to start my own thing was my experience of what I can only say is the shadow side of humanity and most environments, because if I reflect on some of the negative experiences I had, and I think a lot of people, who just sort of have a short stint in very high competitive environments can leave thinking, what?

Justine: Just, you know, what was that? Who was I if they take a moment to pause? So I think that, there's something about, just understanding how we behave under pressure. And, as human beings, that in addition to our great values, and the sort of narrative we may tell about ourselves, there's lots of things we can't see about how we may be affecting other people.

Juliet: Now, you spent a lot of time with senior leaders. What's the conversation they're having behind closed doors that the rest of us don't get to hear?

Justine: Early on in this journey. I sort of, it was it was mind blowing to me, but I was always skilled in creating the conditions for people to be vulnerable. I think something about my own experiences of lack of psychological safety give me instincts to know when it exists and how to create it for others. And so people would open up to me.

Justine: And so, for instance, some of the early experiences, there was one leader who I found so impressive and so, authoritative that I literally was almost I was just very nervous around this person. But something about my vision was really compelling to them. And so we started working together, and I realised early on that the nervousness I felt was actually there, nervousness.

Justine: I was sort of becoming an empath, a conduit for it, because once they felt safe to be vulnerable, they told me they were always feeling anxious. No one would have known. They were always feeling anxious. And I began to recognise that more and more, another, client that stands out. When I first, encountered, him in this case, it was a big guy.

Justine:And I was being assigned as coach. Unless he didn't want it. And, I said, tell me about yourself. And he was like, well, you tell me about yourself. And I was like, okay. And I was, you know, got a lot of, you know, sort of macho signals. So I was like, oh, boy. And then I started talking.

Justine: He started talking, and at some moment I caught an emotional expression and something on his face. And then he kept on going. And then at the very end of our conversation, I said that moment that that affected you, that hurt your feelings, didn't it? And he said yes. And then he decided to work with me. And I think it was 2 or 3 sessions in.

Justine: I made a note.

Juliet: Would you say to him, well.

Justine: Well, I just I noticed that he had feelings, something he tried very hard to hide. And about 2 or 3 sessions in. I had, I had I was determined never to mention, certain words that might sound touchy feely to him. So I just used very sort of business language, but 2 or 3 sessions. And he said, I just want my colleagues to love me.

Justine: And I actually, was working with his colleagues, so I knew that they had no idea this is what he wanted. And, he said if I show any vulnerability, they will think I'm weak. And so the thing that I've sort of become increasingly aware of, and it's for it takes a different form in male versus female leaders, not because of who they are as much as because of the signals they get back.

Justine: But is, the amount of, pressure to seem like you have it all together? To seem like you have all the answers to seem powerful, authoritative. And that expectation isn't always the reality. And so inside, behind the sort of curtain, of The Wizard of Oz, there's a human being, and not everyone gets to see that.

Juliet: A lot of that is how someone is presenting themselves. Maybe they're in performance mode and not being authentic enough, or trying to work with you to keep that, that veneer of authority, but show a bit of vulnerability and human touch too. Can you remember a time, though, when a leader you've worked with was wrestling with a particularly difficult decision, maybe a business decision, rather than just that personal front and what was at stake?

Justine: Well, one that comes to mind, was a leader who wasn't naturally someone who would go for coaching at all. But actually, I had been recommended by one of his, trusted people in his network. And he was in a situation where his entire division was, not performing and had really sort of antagonistic relationships with the rest of the organisation.

Justine: And he knew something had to change. He knew he needed help. And so, it was having the courage to actually get help, and begin to sort of both, inspire and challenge, this his, his immediate team, but actually the entire division. And go through a process of radical change. And so that was that was a very high stakes moment.

Juliet: You talked about having ambition. Yeah. But but but also having those ideals in the business world. How real is that tension between doing the right thing and getting the results that you're paid to deliver?

Justine: Often it's a tension between short term and long term. So often that's the real tension. And often the broader your lens, the more they become the same thing. It may change your emphasis a little bit. You may have a primary goal and a secondary goal, but at the end of the day, everything is interdependent. It's all part of an interconnected fabric.

Justine: And the leaders who can see that most clearly are the most skilled in merging, sort of their desire for performance with their desire to stay true to, purpose, values, etc.. Whether that's on a team, and their fluency and being able to merge the people aspect of things with, you know, what it takes for people to perform.

Justine: Or whether that's in a larger business. But and I'd say this because I studied for my master's thesis, a long time ago. That difference between who we are at home and who we are at work. Perceiving those tension points, sometimes we glaze over them. Perceiving them is key. If you don't perceive them, you'll think that everything is like the emperor with no clothes.

Justine: Yeah, you'll think you're doing great and you'll miss what's happening.

Juliet: And of course, there are organisations you work with of all different shapes and sizes and some, private and some are listed. And then you've got the added pressure of having to answer to shareholders, rather than maybe having the time and the space to work towards that longer term vision. So I wonder if, you know, amongst all of these organisations you've worked with, is there an example of a time where the principles and performance seem to be pulling in those opposite directions?

Justine: So and that's a great point because it's often not just long term short term, but it's how that is, embodied by stakeholders. So and investors can be one boards can be another. So one case, one of my clients, who actually, within their organisation, was under pressure to make very short term decisions that weren't right for the business either, because usually there's a correlation there.

Justine: And that would be damaging for the people, for the brand, but also were counter to the values. Had a connection to the board and was able to find language to put things on the board's radar. In terms of organisational resilience. And the board's alignment around that then sort of trickled back down, through the leadership to make it easier for them to, to, to make longer term or decisions because you have to pay attention to the short term, but to make decisions that, that embodied both.

Justine: So that was one example of that connection to the board and really having a board that, is looking out for what's best for the business, not just today, but tomorrow. Another example is a client who, was able to, although, feels pressure to, to sort of deliver some short term things to investors has enough trust with the investors because of their track record of growth.

Justine: And their track record of actually doing a pretty good job balancing these. So when they see something that they're being pressured to do in the short term, that feels like it will cause long term damage, they're able to find the language and they have the trust and credibility already with the investors. So in some ways, it's a longer term track record with those stakeholders can make a difference.

Juliet: It's interesting you talk about that short term, rhythm. Because there are many buzzwords in the corporate world. Companies taking things on because they have to have a box to tick. It might be sustainability. It might be ethical leadership. Now, I know that's a cool buzzword for you. So when people talk about it, what does it actually look like in the real world?

Juliet: Are people incorporating it into the way they run their businesses, or is it just one of those nice to have things to have on the business plan?

Justine: So it's interesting because years ago I thought about, calling my organisation the centre for Ethical Leadership. So, luckily it was taken. So, and then the concept of synchronous leadership, which I intend to do a lot more writing about, sort of emerged based on a lot of deep reflection, from my thesis. And I think that sometimes the problem with ethical leadership, having studied ethics, you know, is, is the righteousness that comes with it and the sort of singularity of good, which seems okay when you're in a bubble and everyone agrees with you.

Justine: But first of all, none of us are able to really live up to the extreme form. Someone can always catch us out. You just have to be looking for how you're not quite congruent with that value you have. But secondly, you go to another culture, you go to another environment, you go to another generation. And, if the value is in different than it looks different in practice.

Justine: And so we sort of need to be able to, to come together and, figure out what will make flourishing happen, whether it's on a team, what will make this team flourish and be actually high performing, what will make this organisation flourish will make our society flourish. And so I think that for the companies that are practising what I would call, my version of ethical leadership, it's that, ability to pay attention to signals that are outside of your bubble.

Justine: To catch the small signals before they turn big, before anyone blows the whistle. There are tons of small signals that something isn't right. And if you don't have a way to catch those, if you don't have the safety for people to raise those, you're going to take a crisis to grow. But you could avoid the crisis if you have ways of picking up on small signals and processing them at least, hearing them.

Justine: And so those sort of signals of conflict, of tension. Being able to pick up on them is really important. Another thing that's really important is the work of knowing who you are. And I'd say that's important for individual leaders to really understand what their superpowers are, what their sense of purpose is, and their shadow side. But also organisations, organisations have a reason why they have a right to exist.

Justine: They have a reason why they add value. The clearer they are on that reason, the easier it is for them to pivot, but also the more compelling their brand is and the more authentic it feels.

Juliet: Okay, so tell me about a particular leader you've worked with who did pick up on those signals, who was self-aware of the The shadow side as well as the, the, the, the positive things that they could bring to their organisation. Tell me about that leader transformation that that you saw that's really stayed with you.

Justine: So one that comes to mind. A leader who senior leader in a team where things were, a little bit broken, they sensed. And we had a chance to talk to everyone, and they were actually quite broken. There was a real sense of distrust.

Juliet: But the morale was really low.

Justine: Yeah, morale was low. But also, people's, belief in each other, was low. So something that starts off as I don't understand where you're coming from, can go personal, can go toxic. Yeah. It can go. You're not a trustworthy person. And that's when things go downhill. And it may start with the leaders doing this or leaders doing that, but it ends up sort of manifesting in how people even relate to each other often.

Justine: And so a leader who was sensing it wasn't at the worst position, but sensing that things were moving in the wrong direction, they'd hit a bump in the road. Had the foresight to bring us in, and we had, conversations with, you know, all of the team, and some of the stuff that came out was difficult.

Justine: And so it was both the willingness to hear that, and the willingness to reflect on things, and resist the urge to just explain them away. But also the willingness to create the safety and to sort of almost, put vulnerability on the table to to start a conversation of, I want to learn. I want to understand.

Justine: We need to build trust. Trust is the priority. That made other people able to start talking to each other. And start believing that something might actually be different. How do you build trust when it's been really broken? And how do you connect people with each other's humanity enough that they can sort of, you know, understand they haven't been perfect?

Justine: Okay, let's start again and begin to see, people who they may have written off as having something to offer. The difference is being a source of strength as opposed to, a threat or a challenge to their worth. So, there have been many cases, but as you were saying, that one particular one comes to mind, but just the courage to to sort of to step into that vulnerability, to create psychological safety.

Juliet: Now you work with a lot of organisations internally, but but sometimes you, you, you go on stage and you host events, and you've recently hosted an event at the London Stock Exchange. So tell me a little bit about that and why you were there.

Justine: So I had the great honour of, closing the London Stock Exchange last Wednesday, with my goddaughter next to me. So I got in one child. But, and it's my second time, I probably my last. I don't think you get more than two. Closing the London Stock Exchange. The first time was for an initiative, called Agents of Change, and this time was for an, a report called Mindful Exclusion.

Justine: And both were on feature at the event. The event was called. We can do this. Guidelines, for leading in a world without answers. So, should I tell you about those?

Juliet: Do I want to know a little bit about that? Yes, I want to know about who was there, but about these initiatives and why that gave you that moment.

Justine: So mindful exclusion, is a concept that goes way back, to, I think, 2016. There was a piece in the World Economic Forum, at the World Economic Forum's magazine on mindful Exclusion, but we actually started looking at it in 2014, and it was this concept, that was born from looking at employee network leaders, and the challenge of, are you being exclusive?

Justine: And is that okay? And so the first mindful exclusion governance report, which was sort of the second incarnation of Mindful Exclusion, was published in 2021, and it was looking at, boardrooms and what issues, companies had said were really important, but just weren't making it onto the boardroom agenda. What conversations were really important, such as admitting mistakes, asking for help, challenging your assumptions, which just weren't.

Justine: There wasn't any availability for that in the room. And what types of people, weren't being selected for those positions? So, for instance, there was a huge bias towards having a background in finance, which obviously is extremely useful. But it was, like every person around the boardroom table was held to the same standard and that wasn't necessarily getting the mix needed.

Juliet: Interesting that you're talking about not just sticking to the formula of that background in finance and actually maybe someone with modern languages or maybe someone with, life sciences might add to the mix and have a different perspective. So when you look at the organisations that that lose their way, is it usually because of one big wrong decision or lots of little ones?

Justine: So the the big wrong decision that's visible, is just the big wrong decision that's visible. Prior to that, there were probably lots of small things that were looked very similar, that weren't detected, or that were suppressed and shut down. And then the big wrong decision, sort of reaches the threshold where the organisation will respond.

Justine: And so it depends where that threshold is. Is that threshold when it hits the papers, is that threshold when an employee files an official complaint? Is that threshold when someone says, I'm feeling uncomfortable with this decision.

Juliet: So that that big decision is probably the culmination of lots of small ones.

Justine: Lots of small signals, and the organisations that create room to catch those signals. It doesn't mean you have to always follow them, but just to even see they exist. And that is receptive to the fact that they sort of must constantly be an evolution. Those are the ones that usually, are able to sort of take, you know, take in the signals and have space to, to reform and adjust as needed in time to avoid the big crashes.

Juliet: So bring all of that back to your concept of mindful exclusion. Tell me about maybe the first time you realised that what leaders chose not to do can be as important as what they choose to do.

Justine: I mean, I sort of there's a lived experience aspect where I've always seen the intelligence on the margins. And so one of the themes throughout all of our work is power, power, power dynamics. And you'll often find on the margins of power lies some something that, that is would be great to be incorporated. Something it's the blind spot.

Justine: Those on the margins often have access to the blind spot. And so we know this because when we do work in organisations, sometimes we're connecting those at the top with those on the margins. And so for example, flexible working, organisations that had at least considered flexible working because of the pressure on parents and, that call for, you know, please consider flexible working.

Justine: Whether they had decided to go ahead full-fledged or just considered it. Then when Covid hit, because they had sort of been more attuned to that request, they had a much easier time.

Juliet: Is it a sector to sector thing, or are you seeing that across industries.

Justine: Certain sectors will find some, you know, it will be things will be more challenging than others or the norms will be different. So the legal sector, for instance, is one that, you know, struggled because of the, you know, the sort of very traditional norms about billable hours and that sort of thing. I know that many law firms struggle to understand how they would do flexible working, and then suddenly they could.

Justine: Yeah. So whereas, in other sectors, it sort of probably became more normalised. So it does differ by sector, but I think the theme that's, that's consistent is are you willing to just sort of experiment, consider, imagine what might be possible. Or do you shut it down very quickly and sort of move on?

Juliet: So it's interesting you talk about the legal sector there. It was almost, you know, all rooted in principle to start with the. Oh, no, we can't possibly do that. In other cases, convenience might take over or convenience dressed up as principal. So do you, do you, do you how do you see those dynamics changing and evolving over time as the way we work adapts?

Justine: I think the willingness to experiment beyond your bubble, that's the key. If you're doing that you can sort of it will always be some aspect of convenience. We need convenience. But I think if you know that, if you know that you're always going to have convenience and bias, everyone will have it. If you know that, then you will know how to challenge yourself.

Justine: And if you're willing to go through, just an ongoing, set of small challenges, you can avoid the big ones, or you can build up to the ones that actually fit your organisation and the ones that are right for you. And so that willingness and that's something I look for in leaders as well, in terms of whether I think someone is operating at their best and is going to be capable of creating high performance on their team, their willingness to entertain ideas that they don't understand and not write them off because they don't understand them.

Justine: But just sort of lean in with curiosity, will determine whether they can get the head of people, to, you know, cooperate and understand the head of finance, etc.. That, that sort of extra space to sort of not know and be curious, what.

Juliet: Does mindful exclusion look like when it's working well.

Justine: When it's working well, you have ways of, sensing what's next. You have ways of tuning into difficult conversations. You have psychological safety, you have ways of scanning the horizon, that you are not attached to. Your position and your status as much as you are to the purpose that's running through your organisation. And the values that mean something to you.

Justine: And what that means is that instead of having to do massive change and having massive disruption, you just have a series of small, incremental, continuous changes. So something that can be overwhelming, like for instance, the pivot that a lot of organisations had to do in response to Covid becomes smoother and easier to handle because you're ready. And right now that's become more important than ever given the level of disruption, the level of change.

Justine: And one of the messages from the event that we held recently at El SIG was that actually, some organisations are doing much better at handling the megatrends than others, and their performance on every measure is better. So stay tuned. We'll be seeing more about that in the report.

Juliet: Just there need to be a culture already in place to, to be able to, to take those next steps. I mean, can a team really sustain high performance without that underlying culture?

Justine: It helps if it's there. But I think, you know, all parts of an interconnected fabric are relevant. So I've had a CEO say to me once that it was really helpful when, they were trying to convince their colleagues to do something. If people at the bottom of the organisation seemed to really want it.

Juliet: So sometimes the bottom up. Yeah, yeah.

Justine: Sometimes you would plant seeds or check in and then sort of encourage people to speak up and then could be responding to. And then it was easier to convince her colleagues when you would think it was the other way around. But I think it all, all sides of an organisation, people can start, you know, people can start doing something differently.

Justine: It's like a Flashdance. But I think when you're in a position of power, it is a lot easier. And it's important to recognise that. So if I work with a team and the leader is not aligned and is not on board, there's a risk that you do great things, but then it gets undone. So often it's really important that the leader is on board.

Juliet: When you think about some of the best organisations that you've worked with. What feels different when you walk in the room?

Justine: I think a sense of, pride. People are proud to work there. I think a sense of ease, you can feel in people's body. You know, I gave that example of someone who was feeling very anxious, but actually, I felt very anxious. Sometimes when you feel that people are oppressively impressive, if I walk into a room and everyone is oppressively impressive, that's not a relaxed environment.

Justine:That's taking a lot of energy. If I walk into a room and people feel relaxed but focused and they have the same focus, that means I've usually spent time aligning on that focus. So that's good. But if they are very relaxed and focused, and also looking for blind spots, some sort of practice, and sort of muscles that allow them to hold a place of not having all the answers.

Justine: Then that's an environment where you can you can feel the difference. They're not just performing, but they're agile, so they're going to keep on performing.

Juliet: If a leader is listening to the conversation we're having now, they take away one thing. What what do you want it to be?

Justine: Readiness. I haven't talked about it in detail, but being high performing, used to mean that you could make adjustments and the high performing, and it's like, deciding you want to run a marathon. And you could start and do it in two weeks. And you would just, you know, run, run, run, run, run, put your body to the max and then do.

Juliet: Okay, your toenails would fall off.

Justine: So,

Juliet: You get chafing?

Justine: Yeah. Yeah. And then recover. That's no longer going to be possible. The pace of change, the volume of data, the level of disruption means that if you're not ready for what's around the corner, like in Covid, there was this massive push and people made it in the future, I don't think they will make it.

Justine: I think that there's a level of needing to have systems that sense beyond your bubble.

Juliet: So you're always training for the next event, even though it's not necessarily in the diary.

Justine: Yeah, it's your peripheral vision. And that includes your sensitivity to emotions, which often get overlooked. And it includes your ability to tune into sort of small voices, but also to go closer to the ones that are strategically relevant and bring them in, so that you're constantly in conversation with them. And if you can get that system right, then you have an edge.

Justine: And I can say personally, during Covid, we, faced, you know, on the brink of, you know, going out of business. There was a period where everything went quiet and we decided to pivot our own approach, and develop a system. Our, our community membership, a system which we now call a step ahead where we now have, just constantly a stream of speakers who are bringing intelligence that's on the margins, at the edge.

Justine: That's most relevant for leaders right now. Such that they can plug in and get diverse perspectives of what's changing, what's happening constantly. And so that's now embedded in our design. And so it means that we never we always have a way if there's something we come across we don't understand. We just find a speaker and put it in a subhead.

Justine: So it just gives us a way of staying agile. But if you can invest in your systems of readiness, then I think you'll be okay.

Juliet: So you're future-proofing yourself. Justine, it's been a brilliant conversation. I want to do a quick-fire round with you. All right, so responsible business, competitive advantage or necessary obligation? Both. Okay, so I'm not sure that's allowed in the rules, but I'll. I'll let you have that.

Justine: Depends on how you do responsible business.

Juliet: Fair enough. Okay. Pressure reveals character. Do you agree or disagree?

Justine: Reveals and makes.

Juliet: Are you going to answer both to every every question because okay. All right. So it's a yes, but or perhaps it all depends on the context. If is compromise an inevitable part of leadership.

Justine: In the short term, as long as you are also aiming for innovation.

Juliet: So also both okay. Would you rather be respected or liked as a leader? That's interesting, isn't it, because you talked about some of the leaders you you worked with?

Justine: I'd rather add value, be respected for it, and create the experience for others that I want. It feels good to be liked.

Juliet: Can culture survive a bad leader?

Justine: Depends on the level of power that leader actually has. So if the leader has a title but it doesn't mean very much, then it might be able to. So it depends on the, the actual power that the leader has.

Juliet: Can strategy survive a bad culture?

Justine: I don't think so.

Juliet: So the strategy has to be part of the culture to be able to take it to the next level. Profit or purpose?

Justine: Both.

Juliet: Okay, I have to. I need to rethink my quickfire round.

Justine: Well, I could say, you know, I talk a lot about tight ropes.

Juliet: Yeah.

Justine: And so all of these binaries, for me, that's where innovation happens. That's where, things get better. And noticing them. I mean, I've built a business out of noticing the tension points so that we can innovate to something better. So I'll continue answering this. So I go on.

Juliet: I've got just one more for you. And I think there are two words that you've said today. So it could be either one of those or maybe you're going to say both of them. One word that defines high performance today.

Justine: Okay, I said readiness. I'm going to add one more interdependence.

Juliet: And flow.

Justine: And flow.

Juliet: And see we've ended up with three instead of one. Justine, just finally, in your opinion, how do you lead a world without answers? And I say that because we haven't been able to give a definitive yes or no to those quickfire ones. It seems that there's so much that is unpredictable in the world. We live in, in in the world that's ahead of us.

Juliet: So what's it going to take to be a good leader.

Justine: So firstly you need to take time to pause. So you can't be mindful if you're just if you never have time to collect yourself you need to take time to pause. Then you need to understand that you have limitations. As a human being, as a leader, you have limitations as a bubble. And just sort of make sense of that so that you can see beyond it.

Justine: And then you need to, what I would say is walk the tightrope. Notice where there are these tension points in your organisation, whether it's between departments, whether it's, short term, long term and just, you know, be on a journey of of understanding what they mean in practice, engaging with nuance instead of binaries. And the final thing is, recognise that the way that you will make it through the level of complexity we're facing right now is through collective intelligence.

Justine: And so, all of that gets embodied in the pause.

Juliet: And thinking about the team that you've got around.

Justine: You. Absolutely.

Juliet: Justine, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much.

Justine: Same here. Thank you.

Juliet: Thanks again to Justine Lutterodt for sharing her insights, experiences, and perspectives on balancing performance and principles. And thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode and will join us again as we continue to explore what it really takes to achieve more together. Don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues, networks and friends.

Juliet: See you next time!