Is AI a Partner or Threat to High Performance?

Juliet: Hello and thanks for listening. To Achieving More Together, the podcast where we explore what it really takes to build and sustain high performing teams in today's corporate world. I'm Juliet Mann and in each episode, we dive into habits, challenges, and breakthroughs that shape team success. Hearing leaders, experts, and high performers across a variety of industries. In this episode, I spoke to Heather Murray, founder of AI for Non-Techies, to explore. One of the biggest questions facing modern teams is AI is a partner or threat in high performance? As AI becomes more embedded in how we work, we're asking what it really means for productivity, leadership, and team success. How can organisations harness AI to enhance performance, not replace it? And what separates those who thrive with AI from those who fall behind? Keep listening to find out. When people hear high performance, they often associate that with working longer and working harder. And that's not how you see it, though, is it? Give me an example of what high performance means to you.

Heather: Absolutely. So high performance, I think particularly in the age of AI, high performance can mean achieving the same things in a shorter period of time. I think there's a conversation that needs to start happening around. We're taking all these measures in order to save time with AI to make things more efficient. Why aren't we looking at potentially shorter days? In my experience, we're using AI, I am saving all this time. I'm doing things much more productively and then on filling that remaining time with more work. So it makes me hyper productive. But does that equal high performance because I'm have a have a higher cognitive load? I'm managing more than ever in a single day. So I think true high performance is, you know, really making the most of what we've got and achieving a much better work-life balance.

Juliet: So working smarter rather than working longer, working harder.

Heather: Yeah. And that smartness from from AI for sure.

Juliet: When you started non tech. Who were you thinking about. Was there a particular person that you wanted to help?

Heather: Yeah. To be honest myself, when AI first discovered I, I'm not a techie person, hence the name. I never want to be a techie person. I think a lot of people misunderstand that going inside AI and learning AI means that you're learning to be technical and learning to do code. You're absolutely not. You can achieve amazing things with AI being a non-technical person. But I sat there and I discovered it very early on pre ChatGPT days. All of the information out there was for technical people. It included jargon I'd never heard of. It was impenetrable. It was explained in a you've got to know, you've got to be an insider to understand this sort of thing. And I hated it. And I think if you truly understand something, you're able to explain it in a simple way. And I saw a lot of people not necessarily being able to explain it clearly or speaking for a very specific audience. So I wanted something that was really simple. I love Martin. Lewis, for example. I love the way he translates complex financial jargon and complex financial situations into a really easy to understand way. So it becomes nice and accessible. And so I kind of wanted to set out to be the sort of Martin Lewis, but for AI.

Juliet: So choose the money saving expert, if you don't want to let anyone feel left behind in the AI conversation.

Heather: Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of work now as well. You know, I feel really passionate about that digital exclusion. I see my, my dad, you know, not being able to visit a branch of a bank. I see it being increasingly blocked out of of the world because he's he's not very good at phones or computers and increasing levels of frustration for for that age group. It's really unfair. And AI is just going to make that so much worse. So yes, we focus our work. I often on techies on the white-collar workers, on people behind a desk. But we're also doing a lot of AI literacy work to appeal to the likes of my dad, who just need to understand this thing because it's here, whether we like it or not. We're not opting into AI, it's threaded into everything we do now.

Juliet: Now you've spent much of your career helping businesses grow. And when you think about that, because you started long before AI was even in the picture, what were the lessons about people that have really stayed with you?

Heather: Yeah, I think yeah, I love watching businesses grow. And actually that's we've worked with all different sizes of business from the kind of the solopreneurs like, AI started out us, to enterprises, some of the world's biggest brands as well. But watching them become more efficient and watching them grow has been absolutely amazing. But it's never AI think there's just a lot of hype around. There's certainly a lot of hype in the AI world, but there's also a lot of hype around the marketing world, the world I was in before. There's a lot of pressure to do things in a certain way. But I think the biggest lesson of all, and it sounds cheesy, but it's that failing, failing fast, failing forward, you learn so much more from giving things a go yourself than following other people's ways of doing things.

Juliet: If you and AI have met ten years ago and I said, you know, AI is going to be this huge part of your life, what would you have said to me?

Heather: I would have done that face first. I. Would not in a million years. Have thought I would end up working in artificial intelligence. AI what AI knew if it was just, you know, Terminator films or AI robots, I would think it was something to do with robotics. I've never been a person that has. The latest phone or the latest computer. If AI get stuck on something like that, AI just go. And people assume I'm naturally, you know, naturally into that, and I'm really. Not. So, yeah, I've no idea. It was quite. By accident that I fell into it. Anyway. So when I was running my marketing agency, it was a Google search. To, to fix a client problem. So they had the $10 million thing they were selling. I did a Google and thought, well, how can we make this messaging this personal as possible? I came across an AI tool, didn't even realise it was AI at the time, and then we managed to sell $75 million for them using a workflow that integrated AI. And so I was instantly thinking, what is this magic? I need to learn more about this. And then, yeah. So, I wanted to learn as. Much as I can. I've got a very a good ability to hyper focus. And so I just put 3 or 4 hours in every single day, went all in and just shared what I'd learned. And it turns out people really wanted that simple explanation of what's going on. ChatGPT came out and you just went through. So the timing was great. But, yeah. I'd never in a million. Years of thought I would end up. As a as a tech. Founder. What's crazy.

Juliet: And many people are worried, aren't they, that it's going to take away their role. But it sounds like what you're saying is that it's going to give you back time. If you set up your AI in the right way, it can do some of the, the, the, the more basic tasks so that you're free to explore and to grow your business.

Heather: Yeah, I think a lot of people come to me say we have creatives and they say, you know, maybe they're a writer and they say, I can't write anywhere near as well as me. And I think, well, that's not what AI is though. It's not there to replace the bits of your job that you love. It's there to replace the bits of the job that you don't, to give you more time to do more of what you love. If done correctly, I believe it can really revitalize a lot of roles as well. So there are people that have been doing the same thing for years now. We have access to new data, we have new ways of doing things. We are now able to build things, which is really exciting too. We don't have to, have technical skills to create things that we need. We can create apps and websites and tools and calculators and all those things that we need. It's a whole new, revitalized way of working. So yeah, it can save you time, which is wonderful. And you can spend that time doing more of what you love, or spending that time living more and having better time outside of work. Or you can just enjoy your role in a whole new way. And a lot of the organisations we work with are talking about reducing attrition now, and I love hearing that.

Juliet: So instead of replacing people, which it doesn't, but it's not got that capability at the moment.

Heather: At the moment, I have to caveat everything because nobody knows where AI is going. Right now. Absolutely not. But yeah, those people who are, talking about reducing attrition by making jobs more enjoyable, that saves companies huge amounts of money in recruitment costs. And people stay in for longer because they're happier in their role and they can do more. That's a great way of approaching it.

Juliet: What would you say, then, is the biggest misconception that people have about someone who works in AI all day?

Heather: Yeah, as. Well that they'd be technical, but. Definitely are constantly people assume that. And that it's difficult or that you have to use a pet. I think people would imagine that I'm out there using every single tool, and they could just mention at all, and I would have used it in depth. But actually there is when I first started working and I, there were lots of tools and lots of new things coming out, and it was really high speed, but very few of it was actually very few things were actually usable. So you'd have a lot of hype and a lot of content, but when you tried it, thought, actually, that's not as good as they say. Now we're in a stage where there is this even more stuff coming out. There's new businesses popping up every hour. It feels like. And when you try this stuff, it's actually good. So it's not possible for one person to or one company to cover everything. You have to kind of specialise. So I haven't used and a loads of the tools, the mainstream tools that lots of people think are just use key tools that link to my challenges and my problems are my clients challenges and problems, and I learn them properly. So when they release the inevitable updates, it's, I'm ready for it. And they're properly understanding, so it's just too much. Otherwise.

Juliet: How do you cherry pick or do you find you end up building your own? I'm interested to know. You say you give it a go and you think, oh, that's not good. Well, how do you know?

Heather: It's I think a lot of people start with the tool. And then they think, right, what can I use this tool for? So, frequently been told, told we've just rolled out Copilot licenses, for example, to 300 people, I think. Oh, brilliant. What did you pick? Copilot? I don't know when I have. Copilot up where you. And that happens all the time. So they're starting with a tool. You've got to start with the problem first. Forget AI for a while. Just look at your goals as a person or as a business and look at what's stopping you from from achieving them. Everybody knows processes that are inefficient. Everybody knows, when something could be stronger or better. We know we're doing this in a bit of a weak way, or we know this is taking too long to do well. There's too many people doing this. Surely there's a more efficient way then you kind of you've got those mapped out. Then you look at the AI tools that could potentially solve that problem. So your assessment is getting your problem. Does the tool actually solve it at a quality level that you're happy with or not? So I think if you're starting off trying to find use cases, it feels a bit messy and disjointed. But if you start in with the problem and you're using, say you research, you think, right, then I need somebody to help me take really good notes of my meetings. Just a really simple example. It's much easier to try the top 3 or 4 IO note takers and have a look at accuracy. Security, reliability. Those types of things, and assess those in a little table than it used to. Just try and find your use cases everywhere.

Juliet: There's no one size fits all. It sounds like what you're saying, that you might need to have different tools for the different things. You also mentioned that everything is changing really fast. So how does how do we know that we're up with the latest thing and we haven't got stuck in a rut?

Heather: Yeah, AI think, it has the illusion of moving quicker than it actually is. So as AI said, there are lots of new things coming out. And if you were a massive IO enthusiast or you're running an AAI training business like myself, it's a it's a sprint to keep up. But if you are your everyday AI user, the changes that have happened over the last four years since it's been in existence, there's not actually that many major changes. You don't need to know all of the latest features and all of the latest capabilities. There's a kind of ladder of skills it's really important to build. Prompting. Absolutely. At the very beginning. So understanding how to speak to the tool properly, most people don't know how to do that. They treat it like a bit like a Google, search engine, and it's nothing like that. That's not how it works. So learning how to speak to it properly, learning how to critically analyse what comes back out, understanding things like the responses are heavily influenced by bias. It lies confidently. Yeah. It's sycophantic. It will agree with everything you say. You know, you might ask for advice, and it's going to always lean into what you've what you've said, as opposed to give me something that might be a bit better based on fact. It's got lots of issues with it. So learning how to speak to it and understand its responses properly is first and foremost. Then you can start doing the other stuff. The building of assistants and Copilot call them agents for the resistance. So ChatGPT custom GPTs, Claude projects, those types of things reduce. That reduces the need to prompt a little bit. And then you can start factoring it into your workflows and using other features within the tools. But AI think it's really important to just focus on those core skills, as opposed to thinking, AI need to learn all the tools and all the capabilities. The big four, ChatGPT, Copilot, Gemini and Claude, they all pretty much do the same thing at that very beginner level. So pick one, whichever one you like. The look of recommend code is probably the best one right now, but chatting for these parts relates some things that you never know. And Copilot AI mean, they're all pretty much pretty much. Brilliant now, particularly for a beginner, and learn how to speak to it properly. Just focus on that and you can achieve so much just just there and you'll be way ahead of most people if you do that.

Juliet: Can you remember the first time that AI genuinely stopped you in your tracks and you thought, oh my goodness, AI need to learn more?

Heather: Yeah, well, it was ChatGPT coming out. So AI remember sitting there, so AI was running my marketing agency, a copywriting agency. It was AI remember sitting there and ChatGPT came out and AI don't even know how AI discovered it was there. That's something AI would love to trace back because AI'm not the. Person that's on. X or. I'm not that early adopter. I'm not an innovative person.

Juliet: You're not taking on something.

Heather: I've never I'm never the one standing outside the shop waiting for the latest release of something. I'm not like that. So it must have come into my path because it wasn't popular at the time, but it must have come into my path in a more natural way. But anyway, AI found it before anybody AI knew had heard of it, and AI just said hello to it. And AI had a conversation with it. And AI remember just having two really clear thoughts. The first was, my business is going to die. This this is going to come and eat my business up. If it's this good now, what's it going to be like in six months? This is going to kill us. So it was a real panic. But then the other. Side, I'm massive optimist. I'm annoyingly optimistic was. I'm seeing this for the first time. This AI if AI learn how often do you get a chance to be the very first one into a brand new technology? AI was thinking, right, if AI do what AI can do and put my all in, I've really got a lot of energy. AI could be an expert in this area, and AI could show other people, and AI could see it gathering momentum in those first couple of weeks, and AI thought this could be another. Clubhouse that goes down the path. This could be a fad, but AI just given my experience of this, AI think this is really special. So it just went with my gut and AI learned as much as AI possibly can, and it led to where AI was. But AI remember running into my husband, who is even more non-techie than me. He's worked in hospitality his whole life. Saying this ChatGPT AI was really just frightened by it. AI guess it just felt, AI felt like there was a human the other side, and this was a very fast version of it. Yeah. Hate its. Response. I'd love to say he was like, wow, amazing. But he. Just went, yep, lovely. Yeah. I don't want you to fumble. What you do, what you do, that's fine. But AI often refer back to that moment when AI say you.

Juliet: Came away from that experience thinking there's something coming that nobody else has sat up and taken notice of. Yeah. Not even your husband.

Heather: No, no. Nobody had nobody had noticed it. Nobody in my ecosystem at all. There was nobody else speaking about it. So in those early days, AI would be at a conference and AI was the only AI person, which was so great and really contributed to the growth of my business as well. So AI was one of the first voices.

Juliet: But you you mentioned you had a marketing business, a copywriting business. That was a leap then, wasn't it, to to leave behind all of those years of experience and head into something new?

Heather: Yeah, it wasn't an easy one either. It was. It was awful. It was one of the worst times of my life, actually, because AI had my team and my team were not trained in. AI had to make everybody redundant. It was it wasn't just a quick, I'm really excited, let's go and run with this as AI may be. May have made it seem it had a huge emotional toll. And AI had to explain to these people who were so dedicated in my lovely business that AI have to, because it was already you could see it quite. There was a there was almost a kind of moment with AI. Oh, Roisin and, my. Yeah, AI rose into my marketing agency going going down as well. You could see the effects start to happen anyway. So it was eating away or our revenue almost straightaway. And so it was difficult. AI could AI had to protect. AI had to protect my ability to run a business. And yes. So AI had to make people redundant. It was absolutely awful. And then start from scratch, completely on my own, in in debt as well. I was AI was in debt from paying all. The salaries and this over period. But yeah, after a couple of months, it just suddenly rocketed forward. And the debt was paid off. And and now we're in a really nice place.

Juliet: So you took a chance and it paid off. And did it feel brave at the time? Did you feel pioneering?

Heather: Yeah. AI mean, it was a whole new world. It was very exciting world. But AI had no idea how AI was going to whether it was going to stick around. There's a lot of people saying it was a fad, but AI just AI think AI saw something in it, that is now much more apparent to the other people or the non-techie people. I'm sure techie people who've been working in AI have said, yeah, this has been coming for a long time, but. Yeah, AI think, yeah, AI definitely had to go with my gut and follow that through for sure.

Juliet: What part of your old professional identity did you think you had to leave behind?

Heather: Oof, AI think, AI was in a category of my own for a little bit. So it was a, at that sort of competitive marketing agency. There were millions of marketing agencies. It was really competitive. AI had to kind of into go out and to be this voice, to be this translator, to shed my shyness. I'm, AI never come across some people go, well. But, I'm very introverted and I'm. Very chatty, but I'm very introverted. And so AI knew AI had to go out and spread the word about this company in a really had to come in, share and be the face and talk on camera and things like that and get used to these things. AI had to shed that introversion as much as AI can or develop a switch that, and this. Is what I've switched right. Now, is that here as well, is to almost block it out for a little bit, and then I'll go back into my. Little comfort zone. So AI had to shed that, lack of confidence, AI think, and just go out and AI had to get on stage is really early to, to really cement our position as a credible place. If AI wanted to achieve this goal, AI had to really go through it. And AI have lived outside my comfort zone. Almost constantly for the last four years. I've ups. I've had to and it's and it's worked really work for us. And it's just been amazing for my own confidence as well.

Juliet: Do you think that's a key to your leadership style as well? Always sort of sitting on the edge of your comfort zone.

Heather: 100%. Yeah. And AI encourage AI really believe in lifting as you climb. So AI have a lot of women, in my, in my business, AI have a female co-founder and AI brought her in, AI believe, as you do. Well, you should grab as many, particularly women, grab as many women as you possibly can, and and hike them with you to get them into the right rooms. Open opportunities. If there's something you can't do, make sure that you're lining up another woman to help you with that. So make sure you're. Lining up another woman to get that opportunity. If you can't do it, just really share that success. AI think that's been a really, a really major thing in a really major part of my success, for sure.

Juliet: So tell me a little bit about the early success story, because you had this idea, you had this vision, but it meant completely upending the business world that you were already operating in. And then the team that that you had spells spent so long building up. Was there a moment where you thought, yes, this is paying off, but actually, this is even bigger than AI could have possibly imagine.

Heather: So yeah, there was a moment AI was at a conference, technology for marketing conference. It was at the Excel centre and AI was given a speaking gig. AI did it for free is one of these platform things, and AI was just explaining how to write a prompt in a really, simple way. And this queue outside. And AI thought, oh, it must be for the headline stage complete unknown, Brummie unknown. You know, nobody's going to. Be queuing up for this. And the queue was all the way around and my little theater filled up. And then there were four deep queuing to come in and there was problems with people. AI was thinking, people need this. The appetite for this is absolutely huge. And standing after that and the the quality and caliber of brands that were in that queue signed. Please, can you come and speak to us? Can you? It was a huge moment of going, this is massive. I'm going to need some. Help with this because of the fact of being by myself again. So AI worked every hour. AI still AI still work a lot of hours, but AI did everything from the, the lead generation to being on those stages. To delivering the training, to devising the training, to, getting all the feedback to do all the marketing, all the sales calls. That was all me. So AI very had to. AI had to quickly recruit, but the speed of it has been absolutely dizzying. I'm still AI have so many pinch me moments. Just last week, IBM invited me as a guest to spend the day with them, and the day before that was Microsoft saying, come on in and you can interview our, head of skills or, VP of external affairs, our head of apprenticeships. And these doors are all wide open. And then the problem has become, which one do AI go through? Which is something AI haven't AI hadn't really got in that previous in the agency. Now AI have and these doors are usually doors. AI would be running out and canceling everything else. But now AI have to have assistance in looking at these things, and we have to almost think of a, a way to, to categorize these. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's a massive brand. Yeah. They'll fly you to Vegas or they'll do this. But does it align with my goals? And yeah, it's a wonderful. Wonderful problem to have. But it's very it's very tiring as well. We've got to be realistic and, you know, getting a day off or so. That's difficult when there's so much opportunity on the table.

Juliet: I mean, you have now seen hundreds of people try AI for the first time. What do the people who embrace it have in common?

Heather: I think, AI think hundreds of thousands probably now actually over the years with all the different formats and channels. But that curiosity is the main thing. It's curiosity. They, are keen to experiment and they're keen to click the buttons and get hands on, they're willing to give it time as well. There's no cheat code for this. It's like learning a new language. I'm not going to be able to do anything that will teach me how to speak French. Really quickly. It's just putting the time in. Yeah, there's probably, things AI can do that will help me retain the knowledge. You know, proper training, proper skill building, but there's no shortcut. So people are saying AI as a cheat code, and then as a result, they're using it really badly. So you get this kind of AAI slop that term that keeps them coming out really badly written. AAI stuff really badly prompted AAI images the weird things the the it's so. Obvious when it's AI. Written, but when it's when it's really well done. You've no idea AAI is anything to do with it. And that's, AI think it's such a big misconception at the moment that AAI-generated stuff is poor. Poorly generated AAI stuff is poor, but when you use it well. It can be amazing.

Juliet: What do you think is beneath that resistance?

Heather: So AI think there's a common misconception that AI can work by itself. Right now. Everybody's thinking, you set this thing up and then you forget it. But there's three forms of the AI that we've got at the moment. You've got human in the loop. So this is where a human works alongside it will do a little bit and then wait for you to respond and then get back in. So it's human in the loop. You are, several parts in this. Loop of a working. Process. Then you've got human on the loop. That's a bit like when you have that automatic parking. So, you know, when you just. Switch that on and you can just put your hands off the wheel, but if something goes wrong, you can override that's human on the loop. So it will continue going until a human intervenes. And then you've got human out of the loop entirely, which is when something runs just completely on its own and humans don't have anything to do with it. Everybody feels like we're in that human out of the loop bit that the AAI is just there and we're nowhere near that at the moment. But so there are some examples of that in action. So there are some types of trading algorithms, very, very fast trading algorithms. They work far too fast for a. Human to intervene at the right time. You just lose all of those trades if you try to, but also spam filters. So our email spam filters, they just work completely on their own, don't they? It's AI constantly running, constantly. Doing its job, doing such a good job that that spam doesn't come in. We're never intervening. We're not checking. And that's a really good example of human completely out of the loop. But the vast majority of AI that we're using right now, we very much human in the loop, even the very latest features.

Juliet: So once you've explained to people that that's how things work right now, they're less resistant.

Heather: They feel less scared, for sure.

Juliet: So the people who embrace it might have a tendency to use it in the wrong way. But that's where where people like you come in. What about the people who who struggle with it? Who? And I'm not just talking about your your dad of that, you know, older generation. And AI also acknowledge that there are different tools that are going to work for different needs and for different people. But what's usually sitting beneath that resistance.

Heather: I think, we've got the AAI is a really emotive topic. This this isn't something this isn't just a new tool that comes out. It isn't just a new feature. It's not an upgrade or, you know, something you press a button on or you know, a new piece of software at work. This is something that you struggle in our home and our work lives as well. So we're reading headlines that are absolutely terrifying about AI coming for us. You know, the robots are going to take over in 20 years time. We won't have. Jobs. We'll have a universal income. That is absolutely terrifying. AI remember AI did an interview on the, BBC radio and the presenter and AI talk about the oh, you're the presenter. That I've seen on my TV. And he said, right, you need to tell me about this. AI think all AI know is that AI need to be scared of it. That's all he said. And so from somebody completely new to it, that's all he'd heard, because that's what the news is speaking about. That's what the newspapers are talking about, this scaremongering. So it's a really frightening concept. And also within work, a lot of people think, why would AI embrace something that could make me redundant? What? I'm just going to resist as much as AI possibly can, then not quite understanding that it's there to help them. But you will have some employers thinking, right? How am AAI going to get rid of people using AI? AI don't think they're going to succeed, but some people. Might be aware that. Their employer might be that type of person that is looking to get rid of people. So of course they're going to resist that change. It's about building psychological safety, as well. So one of the things we do in our training is we start with that. How are you feeling about it? Because this is this is emotive. This isn't just tech, this is emotional. How are you feeling? Scared. Are you feeling overwhelmed? Are you feeling frightened? Because AI am on a daily basis? AI feel excited about it and motivated. But there's all these feelings and you need to kind of get people onto an even keel and reassure people by things like showing them AI doing silly things is really nice and reassuring. Showing it really fail at a task is really, really shoring. And then they'll be ready to learn when that psychological safety has been established.

Juliet: The thing is, though, many jobs will become automated and there will be a change in the workforce because of advances that we're seeing. Yeah. You know, AI yeah. So what you're talking about here is understanding that nuance. Yeah. Or are you saying that ultimately there always will need to be that human touch for AI to be successful?

Heather: I can only talk for for now with AI around the human touch, you've got human in the loop, which is when you need a human to run it with you. Human on the loop is when it runs and a human stops if it goes wrong, a bit like, you know, self parking, you know, automatic parking. You can't leave it the wheel. If it's going wrong, you grab the. Wheel and then you've got human out of the loop where it will just run completely on its own. We're nowhere near the human out of the loop. We've got we've got a. Couple of things that use that. So your email spam filters, that's AI. We don't touch it. We just let it run. It does its job. We've been using it for years. We've got, you know, some, trading algorithms that move so fast that they work without us. We couldn't possibly have a human in the loop. But AI think, yeah, we of some jobs will be. Of course, some jobs will be automated. We've had that since the industrial revolution. Of course. There are jobs I've done. I was a, A legal P.I. and one of my jobs, in fact, for, for years, AI received a little tape on the top of a court bundle. And I'll put that tape into a little machine. And with my little foot pedals, I'd listen, and AI would type up that court case. That job doesn't exist anymore. Loads of the jobs I've done don't exist anymore. But at that time, social media didn't exist. So that's opened up a whole new things. AI ended up going more into that direction. We've constantly had jobs disappearing. If if you, you know, if you're listening to this and think back to all of the jobs you've done, do all of them still exist? AI think this isn't the new concept of. Jobs being automated.

Juliet: I'm thinking about the jobs that I've done. Dog walker. Yes.

Heather: Yes. Oh yeah.

Juliet: Lifeguards. Yes. Yes. Kids. Entertainer.

Heather: Yeah. Okay. You were right. Yeah, yeah. You're definitely in the right side of things. You'll be fine. But yeah, AI think there are certain certain jobs, you know, my husband. Hospitality, you know. Yeah. Imagine having a. Robot in control of a room full of kids in a school. It's not going. They're not going to manage that. There are certain jobs that are so completely safe. But a lot of jobs. Also flip the flip side to it as well. That also, you know, with no divergence, some jobs, some people have roles that are deliberately repetitive. It might be because of the way they operate. Or it might be because they have a really demanding, life outside of work. So maybe they're a carer and they just want to go in and they just need that kind of repetitive job, bring the money in. And it isn't demanding that a lot of people like that there who AI worry for. Most of all, because it's such an obvious way for AI to come in and take up those jobs. So AI think it's a massive responsibility for employers to not do a real sweeping, adoption of AI, but to be thinking about those things as well. Think about those people who have really invested in your company, but they are doing repetitive jobs. Why have they got that job? It might be boring to you or repetitive to you, but that actually might be really reassuring to them.

Juliet: Yeah. AI mean, look, you often work with non-technical teams. It's your USP if you like. Well, what what do you think the biggest myth is that people tell themselves about AI? Is it this that it's going to take their job?

Heather: Yeah, AI wouldn't say that's the biggest myth because it's. So do you want once but that it's, that it's difficult. There's it's not difficult. There's just a lot of it. I'd say, it's small little steps, and that you have to be aware the big, let's say the biggest myth is you have to be aware of everything that's going on. You need to keep up with the news. You don't you really don't like as AI build those core skills and you will be a head of. Trust me, 95% of the people in your workforce. I literally work with. These big brands, even tech brands where you think, well, I'm going to come into this room. There's a hundred. People in this room. These people are going to be very sophisticated people who build this stuff. They are not. They are also at the very beginning as well. So that's been one of the biggest surprises to me, actually, has been how much at the beginning of this journey, we all are. Everybody.

Juliet: Oh dear. Is it the blind leaving the blind.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. No. Oh, absolutely. We have Chief Eye officers. Coming to me saying, right, AI need to learn this. AI think, AI think how did you how did you get that job?

Juliet: I want to know if AI had ever tripped you up, if you've ever been bamboozled. AI mean, AI have a friend, for example, was telling about this new fantastic band with the most beautiful lead singer who plays a white banjo. I'm thinking, what? I've never heard about this, and AI like to think of myself as being, you know, quite up with these latest cultural trends. And a very quick Google search revealed that it was an AI band created by a man in his garage in Ohio. Really? So when have you been tripped up?

Heather: Oh, God, so many times. I'm just trying to think of examples. Hallucinations happen a lot. I've tried to. It probably would have equated to something AI up facts, a quick fact. So especially early on before AI learned how to prompt properly, and before AI kind of thoroughly understood what AI can do. AI would just trust it. So many people trust it. Like, it's like this Google. They think it's gathering information from credible. Sources and bring it back to it's not, it's. Predicting the next most likely word. And it's trained on the whole of the internet. And the internet isn't, A source of highly credible information. The internet's got personal blogs and websites and everything all over it. But, yeah, it probably would have been some form of fact that AI have gone, did you know this? And, and it's turned out to be AAI waffle.

Juliet: I, AI never have been surprised by something that turned out to be true.

Heather: Oh AI think the, the energy consumption and water consumption facts, I've seen headlines and thought that can't be right. How can because you don't are quite typing something in on your phone or on your laptop with water consumption. And obviously this is associated with emails and with Google sites and all these sorts of things. And AAI is drawn attention to that, and I'm thinking that can't possibly be right. And then when AI look at the actual facts and stats, it really is right. We're using a huge amount of water every time we send a prompt. But we are. Also every time we, do a Google search or. Every time we, send an email that this being online has these effects that actually most people don't realise. And AI certainly didn't realise myself.

Juliet: So AI was is bigger than that. That's more prompt. It's data centres. It's water systems. It's it's the environment.

Heather: Yeah, absolutely. It has a hugely detrimental effect on the environment. But any new technology when it comes out is at its least efficient. We've seen our first water free data centre. AI think it's in Norway, which is a massive step in the right direction. And people, when they've got a choice of four. So, you know, you got the big four you. ChatGPT Copilot, Gemini and Claude, businesses are going to try and pick the one that's making the most sustainable actions, aren't they? Because they need to take off their own sustainable agenda, that there items on there. So it's a massive selling point for them as well. So there's a huge incentive if brands are going to go from Copilot of just align themselves to this data centre Copilot I've got a lower power version of prompt, you know, Gemini, uses less power per prompt by default. Or we can control that. They kind of go towards that. So AI think we will see massive gains in that area. But you've also got to think the flip side, with yes, it's massively damaging the planet we can't dismiss. That's huge. But there's a lot of AAI for good. You know, it's AAI is helping us to create more, really intelligent agriculture. It's, helping us with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. You can tell from a ten second voice note if somebody might have diabetes nowadays using AI, we're able to get test results for people faster. It's having this a huge positive effect on the world as well. And people often forget that when they get buried in the bad. Any technology has massive downside, but also have a massive upside. We've just got to make sure it's in the hands of the right actors.

Juliet: So we've talked about some of the snag, some of the downsides. So let's focus a bit more on the upsides. And AI tell me about a business or maybe a particular individual who's surprised you surprised themselves when they really gave AI a chance.

Heather: I think we see all the time, we see this, this moment. So, we work with councils as well of working with local councils in the West Midlands. And AI remember there was a very cynical, she's a CEO for local council. She probably should be watching this. She'll know who she is. And there was sat and. She was just, you know, she's typical arms folded type of person. We see that a lot. AI like to unfold those arms up. And she said, well, on social isn't really for me. AI better things that could be doing. And we just had AI think it was a half day workshop and there was a moment they were doing a task and she just pushed the laptop back and she stood up. She was like, what? She literally was doing this. Inside the task. I've just done the thing I've just completed using. AI took me days last week. This is changing my whole work. AI can't believe that I've just got this result from this.

Juliet: What was it?

Heather: It was a report. AI think it's some form of report that she has to gather loads of information from, and she could plug in the information. It was all suddenly there. The data was analysed, the presentation was made, and she just couldn't believe it. And she didn't focus on anything else. For the rest of it. She's like, that's it for me. That's my ROI. On attending this workshop. Now AI want to go and take this skill and apply it to loads of other things. But you could see that moment where she went completely from real cynic into, oh wow, AI get this now and AI love it when that happens. It's exciting when that happens. And they come up to me afterwards and go, you've changed. You've changed my whole working day. Thank you. So yes, it's great.

Juliet: So you've been surprised when you've been giving a speech and suddenly your area has been overwhelmed with people who want to know how to start using AI. Yeah. And then you've seen people that you've trained become surprised at how, it can change some everyday tasks. Maybe like if you what next.

Heather: Because we're positioned of that beginner level. So we're getting people off the ground. And so they're still skill building. And so and it takes a long time AI want to see a complete, job role that's being AI powered. So AI don't mean completely transformed, but AI mean somebody who is like me because AI know my own. I know that my own. Job has got AAI throughout it everywhere, and that keeps on being added in. And AI keep on having these productivity gains and new ways of doing things. It's really exciting, but I'd love to see that story. And it's coming now as the skills are built and as the processes are built as well, and that's naturally going to start to happen, that we see individual roles and teams and departments going, we did this and now we can do this, and now we've got time to do this or we are on a forward. I would love to say we're on a four-day working week because we use AI. That would be amazing.

Juliet: And and so I, Heather is completing the rest of the way for you.

Heather: Oh yes please. That would be great. Yeah.

Juliet: Well, AI have to be giving presentations at conferences.

Heather: Obviously not. That's a very human job for sure. Yeah.

Juliet: So when you look at someone who is doing their best work today, what would they be doing differently to how they operated, say, five years ago?

Heather: I think when you would start off, your day, it's a bit similar to what AI do. You start off your day looking at what you've got to achieve, and you think, which bits can AI help me with? And then you, we've got agents now that can can work pretty much on their own. And then you go back and you check their work and you think, well that's great. That's going in the right direction. Continue. So it's a bit like starting your day by briefing a group of assistants. And you think, right, today we're going to achieve this. Off you go. Here's all your briefs. You go off and then come back to me at lunchtime. Show me what you've done. I'll tell you if you're going in the right direction and if you can continue. If not, I'm going to redirect you. And that's how old people's days are going to start to be. So you have these are the tabs or the screens where AAI is work in and getting things ready for you. So you think, well, I'm going to do this task at 2 p.m.. I'm going to brief here eight. So all the information AI need is going to be ready, or I'm going to spend the last part of my day double checking what my agents have done for me. And so it's working alongside you. I've. You notice I'm doing this. It feels like for me, AI have it on one screen and my human work is on one screen and my AI is on the other because it feels that separate to me. Like somebody sat next to me.

Juliet: So do you think that AI is going to create bigger gaps between people or narrow gaps?

Heather: It depends how it's used. So if people go really all in, and they've got their AAI assistants and they're building these little eyes for everything, it could be really. You could make you, less connected to other people because you've. Spent a lot of time with AI. Agents. AI do, I, AI chat, almost conversationally to these things. The whole of a topic is how people speak to these things. But AI chat to them. AI call them he and she. I'll give them real names, AI give them faces, and they feel like that reliable team member that AI go in. So AI have my human team, but also AI have my AAI team. Whether that's connecting me more or less to my team, I'm not sure. I'm really not sure. But people, you could use AI to do all that stuff that would be at your desk and then get out and connect with real humans. Use that other time to do the stuff only humans can do, which is the body language and the tone of voice and the nuance and the judgment, and the ability to interact with each other. So you're not going to I, AAI is, never going to look at you and be able to have that feeling, that kind of just that vibe about someone or, you know, when you meet somebody, you just think, oh. We're not really like you. We really get. Along. You end up doing something. That's what happened with my co-founder. We met on a podcast, actually, and we just got along. There was something about her and she thought the same thing. And we we stayed in touch and we've ended up building this business together. She's more technical, I'm more non-technical. We've got complementary skills. And so that type of thing could never happen if AI was just focused completely on AI. So yeah, AI think we can create more space to do the more human things. That would be the better way of doing it.

Juliet: So that and so the danger of becoming too involved in the tech you're saying is eliminate it because the tech then gets on with it. It itself.

Heather: Yeah.

Juliet: Freeing you up for for that human face to face.

Heather: It should, it absolutely should. And as this technology gets better, it will be getting better doing things on its own so you can achieve things. You're just checking things. You're you're you're instructing it and then you're checking it at the end. But then you can do all the other stuff as a side, the stuff that involves a human nuance, for sure.

Juliet: I'm interested to hear more about how you talk to AI, because you said before that it tends to agree with you. Yes, I'd be quite sycophantic. So can you train AI to to push back into challenge you? Because the danger, of course, is then you end up with a very narcissistic way of working.

Heather: Yeah. Oh, and it's so easy to fall into that trap. I find myself getting disappointed when my friends don't agree with that. Because what do you mean that's a good idea? Yeah, and it really is, AI think. Yeah, it's by its nature, it's there to please. It's never going to say, AI don't know. It's never going to say AI disagree by nature. And absolutely you can. You've got custom instructions in the back. So if you click into your settings you've got these instructions that you can amend, but it will sort of try and push against them. It's got its own set of instructions from its builders. So trying to get it to admit when it doesn't know the answer is really difficult. You can ask it to rate it's confidence in whenever it gives you a fact or assertion. But it itself is really quite egocentric. So it will it will never. Right. It's confidence at four out of ten, for example. So AI ask. It, AAI is say right, whenever you give me a factor in a session, right? Your confidence in how credible that is and how credible that sources that you've got that piece of information from, and it will generally say seven eight 9 or 10 seven is about the lowest it's going to give itself. So understanding that and. Knowing right okay. I'm going to. Check that fact over there. It helps it helps it with lying. But with being sycophantic it's a little bit more easy to control. You can say, don't always agree with me, you know, but you need to to instruct it as to how it should be speaking to you. So, what type of personality do you want? Don't want it to be rude to you because you're just not going to want to speak to it. What you describe in detail. Who would be the perfect, colleague for you? What what what do you want? What role do you want AI to be in your life? Do you want it to be an encouraging, a supportive motivational colleague? Do you want it to be a devil's advocate? Do you want to be able to switch roles? Because you could say at the beginning of every conversation, you could set it with multiple characters and say, for this conversation, AI want Darren. The devil's advocate, or for this one, AI want motivating Mando. You know, AI you know, that's the type of thing I.

Juliet: Would love that you've actually given them names.

Heather: AI is do the so many of them. Now AI have to give them names and faces to remember who does well know.

Juliet: It's interesting. What you're saying is don't rely on. AI entirely always have a fallback position. So as a journalist, for example, AI might ask it something and then I'll ask it to source. Yes, where something's come from. And AAI is want more than one. And then AI will go off and dig a little bit deeper.

Heather: Yeah, 100%. So yeah, when you say, give me. So for every fact that you give me in your response, give me three independent, verified sources from a list of credible places and then explain what you mean by credible. Because credible is ambiguous to one person, it might mean red tops to others, and it might mean broadsheets. Explain what you mean. Give examples of, publications that you would trust if you want just academic journals. If you just want scientific papers, explain. And it can generally work around those and it will bring you back stuff. Also understand that it's not necessarily going to bring back the most recent sources for you as well. It's not really designed for search that way. You have to be quite prescriptive. So say AI want things from only June 2025 onwards. AI want them only from this list of credible sources or those like it. And AI want you to give me at least three independent, verified versions and give me hyperlinks that AI can easily click. And that makes it so much easier for you to really triple check that that what it's telling you is actually true.

Juliet: We're talking quite a lot about, making a working life easier, making you more productive, more, more efficient. What about what you can achieve more, as a person, if AI is doing all of that, all of the admin. Yeah, all of the basic stuff. What kind of things are you going to be able to do? With the new time and the new space.

Heather: The beauty of it is completely up to you, whether that's in work or outside of work. But that, networking, relationship building, spending time with other humans and getting to know them.

Juliet: What have you seen people do with with that you found time?

Heather: Well, what I've seen people do is not what AI think we should do. And AI think we're heading towards a bit of a disaster with that. And I'm guilty of it myself. Is filled up. With more work. Yeah. So more tabs open, more projects AI have. AI used to have maybe 20 tabs. Open on one of those. People, but now AI have about 50 on multiple browsers, multiple screens, and I'm constantly spinning multiple plates. And at the end of the day, I've never been so tired at the end of a day than AI have, because AI'm not focusing properly on one task because it's just so. I've got magpie syndrome. Oh, AI could do that and then do that. And then there's all these rabbit holes. So AI worry about people fill in that time with more work. AI think revenue wise for small business we have grown massively. We grew five times last year because AI'm able to be hyper productive, but that's not sustainable as a CEO. That's that's going to land us into all sorts of problems and burnout.

Juliet: So what do you think was the direction we're going? Are we moving towards a world where success depends less on how hard you work? More on how cleverly you designed the way you were?

Heather: Absolutely. The latter. Absolutely. So process design, go back to good old fashioned process mapping, get some rate. And AI like kinesthetic learning. I like physical things in the world of digital. So get some post-it notes, get a table, be conference table or get a big whiteboard. And think of a process that you do at work and break it down into tiny steps every little step and just map it out. Make sure that you understand that. Give yourself a bit of, good AAI literacy. So you need to understand what AI can and can't do in order to do this properly, and then look at where AAI can help you in that process. That is the way to approach it. That's how are you going to be working smarter, AI think, yeah, if you really want to go and. Put. Yourself out, you'll heighten your revenue, you'll grow your business no problem. If you're going to keep on adding that cognitive load, by freeing up space and filling it up, you're going to get more and more and more money, but you're going to be exhausted. You're bright. The human brain is not designed to cope with that much stuff at once. And AI can AI can deal with a lot. I've got a lot of energy and I've pushed it to its max and and suffered the consequences. AI have burned out. AI burned out a couple of times recently and it's not a fun feeling. So yet mapping out those processes in a clever way, understanding where it's AI but where it's not I. Where does it absolutely have to be human? And where could it be? Automation? Instead? A lot of people cross the two times automation and AI without the automation for much longer. Automation. If you give it a trigger, it does an action for you. Every time that trigger happens. AAI is work much more with this. They. Two things work together very well, but it could be any any one of those things. I. Automation or neither in good old fashioned humans. The best way to do it.

Juliet: Other than you and your business. Can you think of anyone who's using AI really? Well, I, AI suppose what I'm getting at is AI want to know what they're doing. The others on if name drops some big brands. Yeah, but you also mentioned you work with businesses of all shapes and sizes, and maybe it's one of the smaller companies. Yeah.

Heather: Unexpectedly public sector, Wolverhampton City Council. AI bring them up all the time. I've been so impressed by them. So they're doing a top down and bottom approach. So their CEO is really into AI and he openly shares his successes but also his failures. So what he what he's done, what he's tried, what works, what hasn't. He's given everybody the tools to to to experiment. And he's given them time to experiment as well. So there's a big problem with people expecting their workforces to use AI, but not giving them the time to actually learn. Here's some training. Now start learning it. They need to experiment any time. Box experimentation time. Canva recently gave everybody a week to sit and experiment with with AI think as. Not most most businesses couldn't handle a full week. But maybe there's a day that can give people the tools, give them the time to experiment. There's a bit of a gender divide as well with women, and this is going to cause it that so go. Even further. That women naturally don't have that time will have less time because of caring. Duties, all sorts. Of different things outside of work to sit and experiment. So that puts them at a little bit of a, a disadvantage as well. But yeah. So that top down approach, experimentation time, equipping them with the right tools and then forming a little, full task force of AI champions and making sure that that group of champions is not just your AAI enthusiasts because every organisation has them and they think, right, these will be the champions. They're so enthusiastic that energy will go forward. But you need champions that are resistant, champions that are really representative of your your workforce. And this council has done that very, very well indeed.

Juliet: What about those who maybe inadvertently make it harder than it needs to be?

Heather: It's the techie people who think it's more techie. So they'll use terms. They'll use they'll talk about, let's call it a chat bot. They'll talk about APIs. They'll talk about, even either ChatGPT naming conventions or bit poor custom. GPT ChatGPT is a name is very appealing. Is it cool? It's much better. It sounds like a person. But yeah, people who don't understand things tend to hide behind the jargon. And so that's just if you are a lead or you're trying to lead AAI adoption in your organisation, using those techie terms is just going to make people glaze. Over, like, do not care. My whole business is based on that. They don't care about how it works or care about how it works for them.

Juliet: For sure that businesses need an AAI strategy. Always what we're talking about actually a people strategy.

Heather: People first, then yeah, people first, then AI oh, you need both. So absolute you need to think this is massive change management. This is massive digital transformation. You need to treat it accordingly. Start with the people and how they feel. Build the skills and then look at the use cases off the off the back of that too. Then if you want to scale, you train your own trainers. You train your own, in-house champions to keep this going because AAI is. Want a one-and-done. Yeah, you can bring in external people, but they will come in and though that will help a little bit. But you need to have that internal culture as well. But it's absolutely a people strategy first that you need and all the way throughout to support them.

Juliet: Things have moved really fast for you. AI know you can't believe you've got to where you are in such a short space of time, and technology has moved so fast too. But let's try and look in our crystal balls. And fast forward 20 years, what do you hope that will be saying about organisations that that got right? What do they get right at this moment that took them to that next level of.

Heather: And it's come up a few times already, but creating a better work-life balance, using AI. So bringing in the right people, really using that time to focus on the people's careers and making them feel really good and bringing the best out of them, using AI to go. In fact, like we just said, starting with people, really understanding humans better, using this extra time, we're going to create to really understand each other better and what we want and what we're good at and what we'd like to build and how we want to progress. The so many people have got these stagnant careers, and AI was in one for a long time. AI worked at law firms as a PA for a really long time, and AI hated, AI hated it, that job, AI felt like a number. There's no stimulation, there's no humanity to it. AI felt just it. AI thought if AI disappeared, I'd just be replaced by another, another person. Whereas they could have had all this, enthusiasm and skill that could have been unlocked. AI could have done so much more with those firms, but they eaten it. They never brought it out with me. So the firms, the organisations that focus on that human side. So who are you? Why you here, what you want to achieve, what is your life like, and how can we create space for that? And how can we make sure that your job is really stimulating and useful, but also that you have time for. Your family and your friends? It's ridiculous that we have. Got so used to these five days and people working, you know, 10, 11-hour days. And then the weekend we trying to cram in rest. AI think in 20 years time I'd love to see that been much more. 50. 50, and just much more people focused. And AI think that'll be wonderful.

Juliet: I've really enjoyed talking to you. There are so many ideas and your enthusiasm is just easing out of every pore. So let let's do a couple of quick fire, a quick fire questions now. So AI overhyped or under hyped.

Heather: Under hyped.

Juliet: Okay.

Heather: Oh no. Overhyped. Overhyped. Overhyped.

Juliet: Why?

Heather: I think people say it's going to take over the world and take away all these jobs. And not at the moment. Not at the moment. It's not as powerful as people say it is.

Juliet: Yet where's its biggest opportunity.

Heather: In creating space for us to be more human ourselves?

Juliet: What's the biggest risk that individuals and businesses are taking when it comes to AI?

Heather: Data leakage that people are using. So this isn't a quick fire answer, but people are. They need you need to remember that, People are using different AI outside of work. So you can improve tools. They're going to use other tools. They're going to put confidential information. Into those other tools. So you need to make sure you're training people both.

Juliet: Give me one job that you will be amazed still exists in ten years time.

Heather: If I'm going to be in salt. So many people. Web developer.

Juliet: You're you think AAI going to.

Heather: Yeah. AI think you're going with that. Yeah AI think it could. Yes AI what.

Juliet: About that human touch be talked about.

Heather: I think yeah. There will be, agencies and groups of people that will create designs that AI will then follow. But the build, the coding, all those nuances AI think could be handled by eye.

Juliet: Okay. Give me one human skill, though, that's going to become more valuable rather than less.

Heather: Communication, curiosity, resilience. This loads of them. AI think flexibility is the one that would probably land on the times. Times are changing. We need to kind of duck and dive and just roll with the punches. You know, if you're very, very rigid and you don't, you're not going to accept change, then you're going to fall behind.

Juliet: Every leader should use AI, yes or no?

Heather: Yes, 100%. But use it well.

Juliet: So are you optimistic or worried about where we're potentially heading right now?

Heather: Optimistic. From the feedback I'm getting from the clients that we've got, the focus on reducing attrition instead of getting rid of rows. Optimistic right now.

Juliet: And one word. Well this is tough for the future of work Oh okay. And then you can have more than.

Heather: One more balanced.

Juliet: Okay. Balance AI like that.

Heather: Yes. Yeah.

Juliet: All right. So just before we go, AI want to know what one belief about work or success you've changed your mind on through this artificial intelligence journey you've been on.

Heather: That you have to work 1,000,000 hours to be successful, that you have to run yourself into the ground. AI think, yeah, AAI can help you achieve goals if. You keep on running like I've been running, you can still run yourself into the ground, but you. Can achieve amazing things within normal levels of hours. So yeah, that's why I.

Juliet: Have the more. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Heather: Thank you very much.

Juliet: Thanks again to Heather Murray for sharing her insights, experiences, and perspectives on AI and high performance. And thank you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and will join us again as we continue to explore what it really takes to achieve more together. Don't forget to subscribe and share the podcast with your friends, colleagues and networks. See you next time!